Christian Analysis of Shabir Ally's Comments On: THE DEBATE with ALAN STORKY

Sam Shamoun

Shabir :

My debate with Alan Storky on March 1, 1999 at the University of Manchester was a successful one. We debated two topics. The first topic was: "Who is God?" The second topic was: "Who is

Jesus?"

Who is God?

In discussing the first topic I showed that the firm teaching that God is one is stated in the Old Testament, the New Testament, and in the Glorious Qur'an. I claimed that the doctrine of the Trinity is a departure from this continuous teaching. Alan tried to refute this claim with citations from the Bible. However, I explained that his citations do not prove the point. It remains, then, that there is no passage in the Old or New Testaments that command a belief in the Trinity.

Response:

First, Shabir assumes that the Old and the New Testament teaching that there is only one God somehow discredits the doctrine of the Trinity. Yet, the very foundation of the Trinity is that there is only one supreme God. Had the Holy Bible not taught the absolute unity of God then instead of having the Trinity we would end up with Tritheism, the belief in three separate gods.

Shabir has seemingly adopted to attack a straw man as opposed to dealing with what Trinitarians actually believe.

Second, since we have not personally examined the debate we cannot comment on Alan's performance. Suffice it to say the Trinity is taught in both Old and New Testament. In this article, we will limit ourselves to the OT evidence for the Trinity.

THE ANGEL OF YAHWEH

The first line of evidence from the OT that the one true God is a plurality can be found in the figure known as the Angel of Yahweh. Unlike the other angels, this particular figure receives worship due to God, identifies himself as Yahweh God and also appears in human form. In fact, the OT also indicates that this Angel is actually the Messiah that was predicted to come into the world.

"The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, 'Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?' 'I'm running away from my mistress Sarai,' she answered. Then the angel of the LORD told her, 'Go back to your mistress and submit to her.' The angel added, 'I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.' The angel of the LORD also said to her: 'You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.' She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: 'You are the God who sees me,' for she said, 'I have now seen the One who sees me.' That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; it is still there, between Kadesh an d Bered." Genesis 16:7-14

The Angel of the LORD claims to be able to personally bless Hagar by giving her descendants too numerous to count. The author of Genesis (Moses) addresses the Angel as Yahweh/LORD, with Hagar herself calling the Angel the God who sees her.

"Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Haran. When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the LORD, and he said: 'I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you. When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, 'Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it.' He was afraid and said, 'How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.' Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. He called that place Bethel, though the city used to be called Luz. Then Jacob made a vow, saying, 'If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.'" Genesis 28:10-22

According to this passage, Jacob saw Yahweh and anointed a pillar to him. Yet, elsewhere the one who appeared to Jacob is identified as the Angel of Yahweh:

"In breeding season I once had a dream in which I looked up and saw that the male goats mating with the flock were streaked, speckled or spotted. The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.' I answered, 'Here I am.' And he said, 'Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.'" Genesis 31:10-13

Another time where the Angel appears is in Genesis 32:24-30

"So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, 'Let me go, for it is daybreak.' But Jacob replied, 'I will not let you go unless you bless me.' The man asked him, 'What is your name?' 'Jacob,' he answered. Then the man said, 'Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.' Jacob said, 'Please tell me your name.' But he replied, 'Why do you ask my name?' Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.'"

Hosea identifies the man whom Jacob wrestled with as the Angel of Yahweh:

"The LORD has a charge to bring against Judah; he will punish Jacob according to his ways and repay him according to his deeds. In the womb he grasped his brother's heel; as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the ANGEL and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there- the LORD God Almighty, the LORD is his name of renown!" Hosea 12:2-5

The Angel again is identified as Yahweh God. Another time where the Angel's deity is affirmed is at Exodus 23:20-23:

"See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out." Exodus 23:20-23

Not only does the Angel forgive sins and has the power to destroy Israel's enemies, but he also embodies within his very own being the Divine nature and character of Yahweh! Dr. Robert A. Morey comments on the significance of the Angel embodying the Divine Name of Yahweh:

"To the Jews at that time, the name of God was a revelation of His divine nature. As Ellicot correctly pointed out, 'God and His name are almost convertible terms. He is never said to set His Name in a man.' Hengstenberg said, 'The name of God can dwell in him only, who is originally of the same nature with God.' Dean Alford comments:

He is no created angel, but a form of the Divine Presence, bearing the name of Jehovah, a in ch. xiii. 21, and clothed with His attributes, and indeed identified in action (ver. 22) with Him; for it is not said 'he will be an enemy.' &c., but 'I will be,' as equivalent: and (23) the way in which this will be shewn is by his going before thee, and his cuting off the nations.

"The Divine Name… was 'in' the Messenger in the sense that what God was the Messenger was. Keil explains:

Jehovah revealed Himself in him; and hence he is called in chap. xxxiii. 15,16, the face of Jehovah, because the essential nature of Jehovah was manifested in him.

"In the Old Testament, the 'name' of someone revealed his character. For example, the name 'Jacob' meant 'scoundrel' and so he was. Thus, the statement that God's 'name' is in the Messenger can only mean that this Messenger has the character of God…" (Morey, Trinity-Evidence and Issues [Word Publishing; Grand Rapids, MI 1996], p. 152)

The interesting thing about this is that angels never allow anyone to worship them, nor are they ever addressed as God. In fact, angels often give their names unlike the Angel of Yahweh who never gave out his personal name:

"While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. And I heard a man's voice from the Ulai calling, "Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.'" Daniel 8:15-16

"While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice." Daniel 9:20-21

"A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. He said, 'Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.' And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling. Then he continued, 'Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come'… but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince." Daniel 10:10-14, 21

"The angel answered, 'I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news." Luke 1:19

"In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary." Luke 1:26-27

"Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions." Colossians 2:18

"Then the angel said to me, 'Write: "Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!"' And he added, 'These are the true words of God.' At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'" Revelation 19:9-10

"I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, 'Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!'" Revelation 22:8-9

Proof that the Angel of Yahweh is actually the preincarnate Christ can be seen from the following OT passages:

"See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger (Hebrew- angel) of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty." Malachi 3:1

According to this messianic passage the One who was to come to his temple is none other than the Angel of the Covenant, the very same Angel who is referred to as Yahweh:

"The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, 'I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, "I will never break MY COVENANT with you, and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars." Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be [thorns] in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.' When the angel of the LORD had spoken these things to all the Israelites, the people wept aloud, and they called that place Bokim. There they offered sacrifices to the LORD." Judges 2:1-5

Seeing that Malachi 3:1 has been traditionally viewed to predict the advent of the Messiah, this affirms that Jesus is the Angel of Yahweh. The other proof comes from Judges 13:3-23:

"And the angel of the LORD appeared to the woman and said to her, 'Behold, you are barren and have no children; but you shall conceive and bear a son. Therefore beware, and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for lo, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from birth; and he shall begin to deliver Israel from the hand of the Philistines.' Then the woman came and told her husband, 'A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name; but he said to me, "Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son; so then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from birth to the day of his death."' Then Mano'ah entreated the LORD, and said, 'O, LORD, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.' And God listened to the voice of Mano'ah, and the angel of God came again to the woman as she sat in the field; but Mano'ah her husband was not with her. And the woman ran in haste and told her husband, 'Behold, the man who came to me the other day has appeared to me.' And Mano'ah arose and went after his wife, and came to the man and said to him, 'Are you the man who spoke to this woman?' And he said, 'I am.' And Mano'ah said, 'Now when your words come true, what is to be the boy's manner of life, and what is he to do?' And the angel of the LORD said to Mano'ah, 'Of all that I said to the woman let her beware. She may not eat of anything that comes from the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, or eat any unclean thing; all that I commanded her let her observe.' Mano'ah said to the angel of the LORD, 'Pray, let us detain you, and prepare a kid for you.' And the angel of the LORD said to Mano'ah, 'If you detain me, I will not eat of your food; but if you make ready a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.' (For Mano'ah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.) And Mano'ah said to the angel of the LORD, 'What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?' And the angel of the LORD said to him, 'Why do you ask my name, seeing it is WONDERFUL?' So Mano'ah took the kid with the cereal offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD, to him who works wonders. And when the flame went up toward heaven from the altar, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar while Mano'ah and his wife looked on; and they fell on their faces to the ground. The angel of the LORD appeared no more to Mano'ah and to his wife. Then Mano'ah knew that he was the angel of the LORD. And Mano'ah said to his wife, 'We shall surely die, for we have seen God.' But his wife said to him, 'If the LORD had meant to kill us, he w ould not have accepted a burnt offering and a cereal offering at our hands, or shown us all these things, or now announced to us such things as these.'" RSV

The Angel once again appears as a man and is identified as God. According to the Angel his name is Wonderful, which is one of the names given to the Messiah in prophecy!:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called WONDERFUL Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

Hence, in light of the preceding evidence there can be no doubt that the OT picture of the Angel of Yahweh affirms that God is multi-personal and that Jesus Christ eternally preexisted as the divine Angel of God.

THE SPIRIT OF GOD

The other personality that the OT identifies as God is the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given the following divine functions and qualities:

1. The Spirit is Called God

"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: 'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God." 2 Samuel 23:2-3

2. The Spirit is the Creator

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:2

"The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4

3. The Spirit is Omnipresent

"I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit that is on you and put the Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so that you will not have to carry it alone… So Moses went out and told the people what the LORD had said. He brought together seventy of their elders and had them stand around the Tent. Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again. However, two men, whose names were Eldad and Medad, had remained in the camp. They were listed among the elders, but did not go out to the Tent. Yet the Spirit also rested on them, and they prophesied in the camp." Numbers 11:17, 24-26

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, 'Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,' even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you." Psalm 139:7-12

4. The Spirit is a Person

"By the waters of Meribah they angered the LORD, and trouble came to Moses because of them; for they rebelled against the Spirit of God, and rash words came from Moses' lips." Psalm 106:32-33

"Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him?" Isaiah 40:13 NASB

"Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them." Isaiah 63:10

"Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the gate of the house of the LORD that faces east. There at the entrance to the gate were twenty-five men, and I saw among them Jaazaniah son of Azzur and Pelatiah son of Benaiah, leaders of the people. The LORD said to me, 'Son of man, these are the men who are plotting evil and giving wicked advice in this city. They say, "Will it not soon be time to build houses? This city is a cooking pot, and we are the meat." Therefore prophesy against them; prophesy, son of man.' Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: 'This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.'" Ezekiel 11:1-5

"For many years you were patient with them. By your Spirit you admonished them through your prophets. Yet they paid no attention, so you handed them over to the neighboring peoples." Nehemiah 9:30

5. The Spirit is Israel's Redeemer

"Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people - where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them, who sent his glorious arm of power to be at Moses' right hand, who divided the waters before them, to gain for himself everlasting renown, who led them through the depths? Like a horse in open country, they did not stumble; like cattle that go down to the plain, they were given rest by the Spirit of the LORD. This is how you guided your people to make for yourself a glorious name." Isaiah 63:11-14

6. The Spirit is the Author of the New Birth/The Cause of Regeneration

"The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person." 1 Samuel 10:6

"When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth." Psalm 104:30

"The fortress will be abandoned, the noisy city deserted; citadel and watchtower will become a wasteland forever, the delight of donkeys, a pasture for flocks, till the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the desert becomes a fertile field, and the fertile field seems like a forest." Isaiah 32:14-15

"For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God." Ezekiel 36:24-28

7. The Spirit Empowers and Distributes God's Gifts to Believers

"Then the LORD said to Moses, 'See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts - to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship. Moreover, I have appointed Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, to help him. Also I have given skill to all the craftsmen to make everything I have commanded you." Exodus 31:1-6

"Then Moses said to the Israelites, "See, the LORD has chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts." Exodus 35:30-31

"Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the Spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses." Deuteronomy 34:9

"After that you will go to Gibeah of God, where there is a Philistine outpost. As you approach the town, you will meet a procession of prophets coming down from the high place with lyres, tambourines, flutes and harps being played before them, and they will be prophesying. The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you. Go down ahead of me to Gilgal. I will surely come down to you to sacrifice burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, but you must wait seven days until I come to you and tell you what you are to do.' As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul's heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying. When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, 'What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?'" 1 Samuel 10:5-11

"He gave him the plans of all that the Spirit had put in his mind for the courts of the temple of the LORD and all the surrounding rooms, for the treasuries of the temple of God and for the treasuries for the dedicated things. 'All this,' David said, 'I have in writing from the hand of the LORD upon me, and he gave me understanding in all the details of the plan.'" 1 Chronicles 28:12, 19

"But it is the Spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding… For I am full of words, and the Spirit within me compels me." Job 32:8, 18

"A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him - the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD." Isaiah 11:1-2

"The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn." Isaiah 61:1-2

"On the twenty-first day of the seventh month, the word of the LORD came through the prophet Haggai: 'Speak to Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, to Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and to the remnant of the people. Ask them, "Who of you is left who saw this house in its former glory? How does it look to you now? Does it not seem to you like nothing? But now be strong, O Zerubbabel," declares the LORD. "Be strong, O Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest. Be strong, all you people of the land," declares the LORD, "and work. For I am with you," declares the LORD Almighty. "This is what I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. And my Spirit remains among you. Do not fear."'" Haggai 2:1-5

"So he said to me, 'This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: "Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,"' says the LORD Almighty." Zechariah 4:6

Shabir :

I further claimed that there is nothing in reason that would command a belief in the Trinity. In fact, reason seems to dictate a disbelief in that doctrine. In reply, Alan said that when it comes to these matters "rationality bites the dust." Alan did not attempt to show, therefore, that the Trinity is a reasonable doctrine.

Response:

Shabir now appeals to reason as the basis to reject the Trinity. What Shabir has attempted to do is to place limits on the Creator by forcing God to be like his creation. Hence, if Shabir is unable to find anything in creation or through human reason that points to God's Triune Being then it cannot be true.

The problem with Shabir's position is that it conflicts with the testimony of God's true Word, the Holy Bible, and Shabir's own scripture. Both the Holy Bible and the Quran clearly teach that God is completely unlike his creation, being absolutely unique in his mode of existence:

"Among the gods there is none like you, O Lord; no deeds can compare with yours. All the nations you have made will come and worship before you, O Lord; they will bring glory to your name. For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God." Psalm 86:8-10

"The heavens praise your wonders, O LORD, your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones. For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings? In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him. O LORD God Almighty, who is like you? You are mighty, O LORD, and your faithfulness surrounds you." Psalm 89:5-8

"Who is like the LORD our God, the One who sits enthroned on high, who stoops down to look on the heavens and the earth?" Psalm 113:5-6

"Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance? Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding? Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are regarded as dust on the scales; he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust. Lebanon is not sufficient for altar fires, nor its animals enough for burnt offerings. Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing. To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?" Isaiah 40:12-18

"'To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?' says the Holy One. Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing." Isaiah 40:25-26

"No one is like you, O LORD; you are great, and your name is mighty in power. Who should not revere you, O King of the nations? This is your due. Among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is no one like you. They are all senseless and foolish; they are taught by worthless wooden idols. Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish and gold from Uphaz. What the craftsman and goldsmith have made is then dressed in blue and purple- all made by skilled workers. But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath." Jeremiah 10:6-10

"Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him." S. 112:1-4

This being the case, Shabir has no basis to use finite human rationality to reject the Trinity since God transcends both human logic and creation. We need to be clear here ... we are not saying that God's Triunity is irrational since it is not. Rather, we are arguing that God's mode of existence TRANSCENDS the rationality of our finite minds to fathom.

Finally, seeing that God's Triunity is completely unlike anything in creation, transcending human logic and comprehension, this then serves to strengthen the case for the Trinity being a revealed truth from God. Note that the above citations state that God is unlike anything in creation. Shabir himself implicitly admits that there is nothing in creation or human reason which points to the Trinity. Seeing that the Trinity is unlike anything in all creation this makes it all the more likely that it is true. After all, this better comports with the teaching that God is utterly unique and distinct from his creation, existing in a manner much more complex than that of his creation.

Since Shabir likes to use reason, we put this argument in the form of a syllogism in order to help clarify the point we are making:

• God is unlike anything in creation.
• The Trinity is unlike anything in creation.
• Therefore, the Trinity is more likely to be true since it comports with God being unlike anything in creation.

If Shabir denies this then he must explain to us where did the doctrine of the Trinity come from? If he wishes to argue that it is a concoction of the Church, then where did the Church come up with such an idea? After all, even Shabir admits that rationality doesn't lead one to belief in the Trinity, so then what led the Church to believe and formulate this doctrine?

If the Church didn't derive this from special revelation from God, then they must have derived it from the use of reason and logic which means that Shabir is again wrong. In other words, since Shabir doesn't believe that Christians derived this from the Bible, or from God, then he would have to conclude that the Church used reasoning and philosophy to formulate this teaching. But If Shabir embraces this point, and if the Church formulated the Trinity on the basis of philosophical reasoning, then this means that the Trinity can be derived through the use of reason, thereby falsifying Shabir's claim to the contrary!

Hence, either way Shabir ends up refuting himself.

Shabir :

Who is Jesus?

In discussing the second topic, I showed that the continuous clear teaching about Jesus in the New Testament is that Jesus is a Servant and Messenger of God. I stressed that Muslims believe in Jesus. We believe that Jesus was the Messiah; that he was born of a virgin; that he performed many miracles by God's leave; that God raised him up; and that God will send him again. I claimed that there is nothing in the Bible to contradict this belief. Alan was unable to produce any firm evidence from the Bible to disprove me.

Response:

If Shabir was able to show that nothing in the NT depiction of Jesus contradicted the Muslim view of Christ, then Shabir was obviously not reading carefully.

Shabir :

The love of God and Jesus

Alan stressed that God is love. This love is demonstrated in the passion of Jesus. In reply, I showed that if the Trinity and the Divine Sonship of Jesus are not demanded by scripture, then they are later doctrines that should be abandoned. The understanding that God is one is the very first commandment stressed in the Bible. If Christianity fails on this commandment the idea that God is love will not cancel this failure.

Response:

First, an honest reading of scripture demands the belief in the Trinity and the Divine Sonship of Jesus.

Second, Storkey's point is still valid. Seeing that God is completely self-sufficient and self-existent then the fact that he is love would demand a plurality within his own Being in order for God to retain his self-sufficiency. True love needs an object in which it is directed. If God is a singularity-within-unity then either he is not the source of true love or he no longer remains self-sufficient. This is due to the fact that God would require an object outside his own mode of existence in order to express his own love. This then implies that God was dependent upon another rational being(s) in order for God to remain the source of true love, which then nullifies his self-sufficiency.

Yet, the doctrine of the Trinity affirms that God is both self-sufficient and the source of true love. The Trinity is able to direct its love towards its own self. The Triune God does not require an object outside his own Being in which to direct his eternal and unconditional love. The three Persons of the Godhead become the objects of the others' love.

Lest one think that this is merely a philosophical argument as opposed to a biblical one, note what the following passages say:

"Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love... So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." 1 John 4:8, 16

"Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." John 17:24

"to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." Ephesians 1:6

"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love," Colossians 1:13 NKJV

Clearly the Bible says that God is love, that he is the true source of pure, selfless love. At the same time the Holy Scriptures teach that from all eternity Jesus, his Son, is the object of his love. Thus, God's love is unconditional and doesn't need anyone outside of his own Being in order for that love to be expressed unconditionally. And here is the greatness of God ... even though he doesn't need anyone or anything to express his love so that it can truly be unconditional and selfless, since he has the Son, he still chooses to bestow his love freely on others, on those whose existence are not necessary for his own life and reality. He does so out of pure grace, out of unmerited favor!

Finally, Shabir again assumes that the teaching that God is one nullifies the Triunity of God. What Shabir has assumed is that oneness must mean a singularity-within-unity as opposed to God being a plurality-within-unity. Shabir seemingly does not realize that you can have unity without this implying singularity. The Trinity is in complete harmony with the belief that God is one.

Shabir :

Results:

The discussion was a lively one, with quick interchanges between speakers. Both speakers marshaled good arguments in support of what they believe. The results of our discussion on the two topics is that the arguments presented proved that the Trinity was a teaching invented after the Bible was written and not expressed within the Bible. Moreover, the doctrine of the Divine Sonship of Jesus is also a later idea read back into the Gospels. The first commandment in the Bible cannot be abandoned.

Response:

If Shabir was able to prove that the Trinity was a teaching invented after the Bible was written, then Shabir did not accurately interpret the Holy Bible. Shabir has either not read the Bible clearly, or deliberately misrepresented the biblical teaching on the Trinity. Furthermore, Shabir implicitly affirms that the Trinity is a biblical teaching since he now states that the divine sonship of Christ was read back into the Gospels. Hence, the fact that the Gospels do teach the divinity of Jesus implicitly affirms that the God of scripture is multi-personal because the Gospel writers include Christ in the divine identity while still maintaining a distinction between him and the Father.

Finally, Shabir has again committed both the straw man fallacy and the fallacy of false dilemma. He again assumes that to say that God is one negates the belief in the Trinity. Yet, the heart of trinitarianism is that God is absolutely one and hence Shabir chases another straw man here and assumes that God must either be one or three, but cannot be both.

Shabir :

THE AFTERMATH

In the discussion that followed many Christians said that Alan did not adequately represent them. This is a frequent complaint that I have heard after many debates. I hope that this matter will be looked into prior to every debate rather than be addressed as a complaint after the debate.

I have found also that frequently after a debate excuses are offered for the outcome of the debate.

In this case, there was some discussion about my reading of a verse from Luke's Gospel during the question period. Because of the length of discussion this matter has generated, I think it best to go into some detail here.

Near the end of the debate, a questioner asked me to notice that in Luke 22:70 Jesus admitted that he is the Son of God. Instead of replying in my own words, I read the passage out loud. It so happens that the Bible version I had read from was different than what the questioner had in mind. The questioner was referring to the New International Version whereas I was referring to the New American Bible. Whereas his version showed that Jesus admitted being the Son of God, my version showed that he did not admit it. After I read it there was a roar of laughter in the audience.

Response:

In actuality, the very version used by Shabir affirms that Jesus was not denying his deity in Luke 22:70. Rather, Jesus was indicating that even his enemies had indirectly acknowledged his deity by asking him the question in the first place. Had Shabir examined to see how Jesus used this particular expression elsewhere, he would have discovered this fact for himself.

Messianic Jewish believer, Dr. David Stern explains the Aramaic idiom behind Jesus' saying in Luke 22:70:

"You say I am, literally, 'You say,' with the same import here as the modern English idiom, 'You said it!' Yeshua's meaning here is, 'Yes, I am the Son of God, just as you have asked in your question.' That Yeshua's inquirers understood him is clear from their response in v. 71…" (Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary [Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc. fifth edition 1996], p. 146)

Stern's interpretation bears out when we notice elsewhere how Jesus used the same phrase:

"'The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.' Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply, 'Surely it is not I, Rabbi?' He answered, 'You have said so.'" Matthew 26:24-25 NAB

It is obvious that Jesus was not denying that Judas was his betrayer, but was rather confirming that Judas had answered his own question.

"Then the whole assembly of them arose and brought him before Pilate. They brought charge against him, saying, 'We found this man misleading our people; he opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and maintains that he is the Messiah, a king.' Pilate asked him, 'Are you the king of the Jews?' He said to him in reply, 'You say so.'" Luke 23:1-3 NAB

That Jesus' reply was taken as an affirmative statement can be seen in the charges posted above his cross:

"Even the soldiers jeered at him. As they approached to offer him wine they called out, 'If you are King of the Jews, save yourself.' Above him there was an inscription that read, 'This is the King of the Jews.'" Luke 23:37-38 NAB

Interestingly, after reading this inscription the chief priests complained:

"Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, 'Do not write "The King of the Jews," but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.' Pilate answered, 'What I have written, I have written.'" John 19:19-22

Stern comments on Luke 23:3:

"The words are yours. The Greek is the same as five verses above (see 22:70&N). Here Yeshua means that Pilate has hit upon the truth." (Stern, p. 147)

Matthew further solidifies the point that Jesus' answer was taken as a positive affirmation of his divine sonship:

"But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, 'I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.' Jesus said to him, 'You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.'" Matthew 26:63-64 RSV

While Christ hung on the cross, the onlookers jeered him for claiming to be God's Son:

"And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, 'You who would destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.' So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 'He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'" Matthew 27:39-43 RSV

NT Catholic Scholar Raymond E. Brown comments:

"In Matt Jesus answers the high priest's combined question about the Messiah, Son of God thus: 'That is what you say.' This is an affirmative, but one that puts responsibility on the questioner for the interpretation being given to the point at issue- an interpretation about which the speaker is not enthusiastic. If one seeks on the level of the story-line why the Matthean Jesus would have been so enthusiastic when Peter used these combined titles but is now much more cautious when the high priest uses them, the solution is that Peter used them as a confession uttered under divine revelation while the high priest uses them as a disbelieving question to find evidence against Jesus." (Brown, Introduction to New Testament Christology [Paulist Press New York/Mahwah, 1994], pp. 76-77)