In article <4ipsqs$>, Jochen Katz  writes:

In article <4impbd$>, 
(Ibnu Ar Radi) writes:
| Did Jesus realy die on the cross ?
| Mr Jochen Katz had brought this subject up, and well he received quite a 
| number of replies.

You chose your words well - "reply" is not the same as "answer". :)
But I am grateful for those who take the time to reply and make an
attempt to answer.

| But did Jesus really die on the cross?

.... a rather "eloquent" and well thought out article ...

The problem is that it is in contradiction to the facts.

| Conclusion :
| None of Jesus' disciples were recorded as being present during the 
| Cruxifiction as eye-witness to this event. 

Gospel as recorded by John, chapter 19, verses 25 - 27:

25   Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the
     wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26   When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved
     standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son,"
27   and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this
     disciple took her into his home.

Some of his female followers, and his own MOTHER [you can't fool a mother
with a substitute], AND (at least) his disciple JOHN were standing under 
the cross and watched him die.

"The disciple whom he loved" = his best friend John.

AND: Why do nearly half the Muslims spell it "CrucifiCTion" 
                                  instead of "CrucifiXion"? 

Why do so many Muslims read more Ahmad Deedat as their prime guru and 
authority instead of checking out the Bible itself? 
[Because this is the intentional mispelling from A.Deedat's propaganda 
material on the topic.]

| Ask this writer his opinion and I will quote what Gary Miller said - which 
| effect emcompass ALL the differing opinions:

Exactly: He was reported dead  (by eyewitnesses!) 
     and he was reported risen (by eyewitnesses!). 

Pretty clear cut case, if you should you ask me - but probably you won't.

Now let me ask you a questions; 
Was your claim of 'no eye witnesses' just a simple oversight - though stated
with much conviction? But since you put it into the "conclusions" it should 
indicate you have researched the question well.

Or: Does the 'working' Islamic theory of a "corrupted Bible" include that
you yourself can change it on your own authority into what you would like
it to be and then claim that it actually IS what you changed in into?
I agree, THAT IS corruption. 

Furthermore you say:

| A few things that a Muslim should know:-

| 	Christendom as a whole TODAY speaks with one voice in at least this
| 	one issue "Yes he WAS killed" they say.
| 	In its early days though, there were controversies and disagreement 
| 	amongst them as to what really happened - the Basilidians and the 
| 	Carpocratians are example of groups which oppose the idea that the
| 	Christ was killed.

I never heard of the Basilidians or Carpocratians. That doesn't mean they 
don't exist, since there is a lot I don't know. But it does mean they were 
for sure quite an obscure group.

Would you care to give a reference as to where you obtained this information?

But let's assume those groups existed at "some" time.
["When?" is actually an important question - 7th century wouldn't be very 
So what?

Should I say: "Muslims believe Mr. Ahmad is the Messiah!" because a sect 
- claiming to be Muslims - says so?

The question is not: 
     Can you find some sect that believes what you would like to see? 
But: What has orthodox, authentic Christianity believed at all times?

|       Another theory states that it was Jesus' twin
| 	brother who was slain, while he escaped.

Speculations getting wilder and wilder...

Gosh. I am amazed to what length and absurdity Muslims go to discredit
Christianity. Do you know that a twin brother by necessity would have to 
be born by the same virgin too? How come we have never heard in Christian
or Islamic writings that there were actually two of them?

Everybody is of course free to make up new theories of his own. But don't
think that this helps any thinking person to take Islam seriously.

But maybe that is the solution to the Ahmadiyya claim of Jesus being buried
in Kashmir. It was the twin brother who emigrated and is buried there and
fooled the Ahmadiyyans. Jesus mother Mary was at the cross and she would be 
able to keep her two sons apart. :)


Jochen Katz                 Web Site "Christian Answers to Islam":

P.S: Just for the record: 
Ibnu Ar Radi's article was eloquent, forcefully presented, 
but nevertheless in content fraught with errors. This should demonstrate 
that "eloquence" even to the highest degree is no criterion for truth.

Continue with the next part.
Overview on the crucifixion articles.

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